VenomBreath

Do you think a certain skill is too strong/weak, a monster should be more balanced or a specific items should drop more often?
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VenomBreath

Postby Reckoning » 14. May 2011, 05:18

Here are the 'Stats' of venom breath as it is at level 20.

-6 energy
-58 damage
-.3 second cooldown.
-Unlimited targets (with and without Plague)

This means that if you have decent stats you will hit somewhere in the ballpark of 300-400 damage without weaken, 600+ damage with weaken. With that said, if I have 100% cast speed I will cast at a rate of .15 seconds per cast. Basically a tenth of a second per (lets call it 550 damage) I can do 3.3k (roughtly) damage per second. at a cost of 18 power. This is WAY overpowered or as others liker to say it does too much for the CD/Energy.

I have tested this with *Decent gear, nothing special and that's what I have come up with. I am sure with Good+ gear you could definitely do a lot more damage, the way I see it, it is one of the most unbalanced skills out there, besides Vicious Strike and a few other skills.

I'm sure people who use the skills Venom breath will object, so lets prove beyond ALL DOUBT that this skills needs to be changed.

Let's for a moment compare it to another skill.

Frosprojectiles. Level 20.
-15 Energy
-47 Damage ( or with gear around 200-300)
-1 second cooldown.
- 7 targets

With frostprojectiles I do less damage than I do with venombreath and venombreath has a MUCH shorter cooldown, AND takes less energy. Obviously Venombreath needs to be nerfed.

What venom breath should do at level 20.

-16 Energy
-50 damage
-1.1 second cooldown

Reasons why It should have these stats at level 20.

1.Venom breath used in conjunction with plague can already hit an unlimited number of mobs.
2. It needs to use WAY more energy than 6 at level 20, most if not all skills cost at least 14 energy at level 20.
3. 50 Damage is already more damage more than ice projectiles and most if not all other AOE skills.
4. 1.1 second cooldown is .1 second longer than most AOE skills, as they usually have at least a 1 second cooldown. The fact that Venom Breath already does more damage than most other aoe's dictates (demands) that it must also have a longer Cooldown. Otherwise, how will it be balanced?



-Reckoning

P.S. I am looking forward to objections...Because, I can prove beyond all doubt that this skill needs to be changed.
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Re: VenomBreath

Postby Monk » 14. May 2011, 10:06

one thing to mention: you cant count the castspeed to increase dmg (like the 3.3k you calculated). It should tick only once per second, no matter how fast you cast. But ofc i agree that the dmg is somehow insane^^
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Re: VenomBreath

Postby SeyzTLS » 14. May 2011, 10:31

1. VenomBreath isnt AoE skill!!!
the plague ticks only if mobs are really near to the other one.
without plague you hit allways 1mob. not more.
only if you pull an crowd mass of mobs you can kill them like with other AoE-skills.

--> so basically it's a one-target-skill

what skill stacks with plague isnt relevant. plague stacks with all other poisonskills too. so its maybe the problem with plague but not with 1 special poisonskill.

2. the short cd effects nothing: like monk said, the dmg tick only every second. its totaly wayne if you have 1000 cs. you drain only your energy faster. The dps is allways the same. like you said the 300-400 without weaken. other skills deals much more dps on a single target because they stack with cs/as.
(i would say with good gear nearly all other skills xD)

3. the skill VenomBreath stacks only with poisonpct or power. the dmg-potencial of pestilence is much higher. (it stacks with +poisondmg too and have a longer duration) so if you want to change VenomBreath pestilence must changed first.

(i plan a char with pestiilence and will show his dmg output here soon :mrgreen: )

btw.: the lvl 20 informations of your venombreath are a little bit wrong.
the basedmg is 60
the cd is right
the energycosts are 7

only let us compare to other 1target spells. if the basedmg is higher than 60 and the cd ca. 1sec it should deal more dmg with same eq. (if you have 0castspeed) if someone has around 100 (like every normal caster have) the dps is much higher.
physical 1target-skills are with good gear of course all stronger i think. only use phillip and the dmgoutput is * 2 xD
Last edited by SeyzTLS on 14. May 2011, 12:53, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: VenomBreath

Postby darkyz » 14. May 2011, 11:09

looks like everyone is in a hurry to "balance" things even if we dont have the game realeased with its full content.
ever tought at a mob of lvl 50 or more which prolly will have alot more hp, will hurt u alot more etc, will you have enought dmg to fight with these supposed to be "overpowered" skills that u see them now on mobs that are 10+lvls lower than the char maxed abils, i bet we gonna start a post that time with "swing" "fireball dmg too low" or smth like that.
i think that OP skill is viciousstrike (not even sure why marlon dont remove it from the old chars and let ppls kill bosses with it in 2-3 seconds, i consider it exploiting).
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Re: VenomBreath

Postby SeyzTLS » 14. May 2011, 12:31

total agree darkyz =)
later if we have higher mobs we need to rebalance all things again then xD


and i want to mention one last thing:
with god-eq and the right build all skills can deal dmg like hell.
for example shiver3: before he uses frostspike all people thought it is senseless and weak. noone used it.
same was with VenomBreath. before i used it there was only 1-2 other poisonchar on the server.
messed ups pestilence-user... now i use it with some good gear and all say its op and make venom-chars too.

if you ask shiver venombreath is in combat really bad. xD
exspecially if someone has a little bit more movementspeed.
he can kill my char without taking any dmg.
someone only need a little bit poisonres like nelha3 and a ramp can kill 1khp of my antirampchar. CetraPvE defeated my char very often too.
i think in lots of skills are very high potencial. but atm we nerf/balance only things if someone use nice gear and a good build with it.

another example is WatchingDune i think. a very nice build with a skill that was told weak. but with the right skills and the right eq its still a very good build against lowrange-chars. i bet if some people use avalange too with highdmg eq all other say again..ah how op...we need a nerf xD
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Re: VenomBreath

Postby Marlon » 14. May 2011, 16:03

darkyz wrote:looks like everyone is in a hurry to "balance" things even if we dont have the game realeased with its full content.


Thats what a BETA is about! Ofc I need your advices and your balancing suggestions! In the BETA we form the game, later we play it! ;)
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Re: VenomBreath

Postby darkyz » 14. May 2011, 16:33

i know what beta is about and sugestions are needed, what i was saying is that the skills/builds are tested on too weak mobs atm and maybe lowering a skill based on some weak mobs is not a good ideea untill at least the mobs have catched up with our lvls. In my opinion, no skill is overpowered based on that, if 1hits 10 lvls lowers mobs, maybe unbalanced is a better word for a skill that does good dmg and has too low energy consuming. I can say that any skill on a lvl 35+ char with a decent gear if cant 1hit a mob 10lvls below is a better subject to balance it, than other skill that can 1 hit, in my opinion that 1hit skill is more balanced for whats next to come (more content) than the other lower dmg ones.
Lets do a simple "test", increase all 27+ mobs hp 3 times for a week and lets see what skills comes up as "under/overpowered" :mrgreen:
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Re: VenomBreath

Postby Reckoning » 14. May 2011, 21:27

Ah thanks for the information, but like I said. I did test the skill. And the biggest problem I see with it right now, is the energy cost. 7 Energy for a level 20 skill? Seems a bit low. I might have been a bit hasty on this thread. However When I used the skill it seemed like it did too much damage considering that it only cost around 1-7 energy. I'm not sure what you guys think about that though. And even if the energy cost does increase, 60 damage is still too much damage for a poison skill. I would suggest something like maybe 52. Why? Because even if the mobs were say level 35, you would still one-two shot them.

The problem with balancing skills I think are these problems.

1. There aren't enough mobs to test the skills on.
2. Players don't often get reset stones after they're balanced.
3. Players don't discuss the skills that they want balanced with other players, and so they often get unbalanced instead.

So what I suggest in the future, is that we all discuss with each other what skills we think should be balanced, so that we can make the game better.
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Re: VenomBreath

Postby SeyzTLS » 15. May 2011, 20:34

Reckoning wrote:I would suggest something like maybe 52. Why? Because even if the mobs were say level 35, you would still one-two shot them.


i have other experiences with that skill.
60basedmg is nothing for a 1target-spell. it was allready higher some patches ago. i need with seyz at lvl 30mobs still 2 or more seconds. (with dw you deal like 33pct dmg more with right eq. but you cant base the dmg of all magical spells on dualwield-chars)

Reckoning wrote:60 damage is still too much damage for a poison skill.

who said that? :shock: you can compare it to other poisonskills? only 1 => pestilence

with pestilence and right eq you can reach easily 100basedmg or much more. (pestilence + envenomedhand+ +poisondmg from eq)

other skills like icelightning have 88basedmg at 20 avalange more than 100. idk i think noone have it on 20. xD

so why you say its still too high? xD you can reach with nearly all other 1targetspells this venomdmg or still much more if you want. with some castspeed you can reach also a very higher dps. if not it doesnt depend on the 60basedmg. maybe on the eq of the person or maybe a bug. (and i dont want to mention the hybridskills here. thier dmgoutput is totally other dimension.)

i also think poison doesnt works here like in other games. it isnt the normal very low dmg. here it is like a normal magical class.
but here you have no other benefits from poison like maybe in wow too. there you can reduce heal by 50pct or slow the enemy with poison or lower the castspeed insanly. (furthermore here is poison a mainskill. in other games its more a secondary skill)
you can base a character on that. if we lower the dmg more and more (like we did. of course of bugs and so on) this thing becomes senseless.
you havent so much skillpoints to waste them for a little bit poisondmg.


and another thing. poison was nerfed with the last patch too =) daggers have now ca. 10pct lesser poisondmg-pct as before
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Re: VenomBreath

Postby Reckoning » 15. May 2011, 23:33

Perhaps then we shouldn't be so worried about skills, but be more worried about the mobs. Maybe mobs still need more HP, better skills combos etc. The point in making skills worse, is to make the game more of a challenge, but if the mobs get to be harder, then I think it won't matter so much.
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