Balancing Spells - Recent topic.

Do you think a certain skill is too strong/weak, a monster should be more balanced or a specific items should drop more often?
Feel free to write your opinions here.

Balancing Spells - Recent topic.

Postby Reckoning » 4. Jun 2011, 23:41

madsex wrote:Lol this is item balancing, not spell balancing. But to go off topic...
I have a suggestion about summons. I think it would be fair and reasonable if the summons walked at the speed of the hero who summoned them. This should include speed from spells, from items, and from the achievement. Because summoners can always get really fast movement speed, but their summons cant catch up to an enemy in pvp. Or you could have another minion stat called Minion Speed which will be on items and such.


NeCRoTyPHoNiXiS wrote:
I just go to NeCRoTyPHoNiXiS and im very sad to see what did you do about the druide
Before Druide did 1.4k/sc Dmg with Venombreath level 20 and almost full Perfect items (the hardest skill to level up)
Now its do 250/sc

But of course Shiver do 1k x 4 Per second and you think its absolutely normal
I think his idea are good but this build too Strong against all other that's why i think his build need to be balanced druide need to be balanced and also frostpike.


Friendly,
NeCRoTyPHoNiXiS


I don't think people understand something. To have a good balance, you need to look at the different mobs, PVP, and the gear as a whole, not individually.

For spells here are the numbers.

AOE Damage - Max 600 Damage. ( Per second)
Single Target Damage - Max 1.2k Damage. ( Per second)


Basically, when people are looking to balance things, and suggest balances to marlon, you really need to think of things as a WHOLE not individually. You need too look at how much gear and other skills are going to influence the skill you want to balance. If you don't what ends up happening is you get a lot of even more unbalanced skills.


So far example, minions speed and Venom breath/ Frostpike. Here is my opinion on it.

Minions are already really over powered, they are possibly one of the harder hitting/hardest to kill things in the game right now. For several reasons.

1. Unity is over powered, 7 seconds is much too long. 5 seconds is ideal.
2. Thorns - 65-72% damage reflect in PVP is WAY too Much.
3. Werewolf and Returned fiends hit A TON of damage, as well as the other summons.

Basically the only way to survive against a summoner at this point is to either kite him, or have an INSANE amount of leach. Adding more speed to the summons is a bad idea, because it will just make them more unbalanced in PVP. They already win 7/10 times.

Frostpike:
hitting 600-900 damage on a single target isnt that much, however when you add it's low cool down to the mix, it starts to be a problem. Not only does it hit hard, but now it hits really fast as well. Then if you add a Fidgety to the mix, you have A HUGE increase in damage, something like 3x what it normally does. A 1.5 second cool down - a 1.8 second cooldown would be ideal.

Venom Breath:
Hitting 1.4k damage with a spell isn't that impressive, however when you add plague to the spell it starts to get out of hand. Hitting 1.4k Damage to an unlimited number of mobs, gets to be VERY unbalanced. You can't just look at the skill by itself, because when you look at it with other skills that's where the problem is.
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Re: Balancing Spells - Recent topic.

Postby NeCRo » 5. Jun 2011, 14:44

Shiver be serious for one time
Frostpike have 66 Miles of range its normal ?
Frostpike have 1k Dmg/ hit its normal ?
Frostpike have very fast hit its normal ?
Frostpike Dmg / second : 3-4k
Frostpike have AOE DMG its normal ?
Frostpike in PVP is just a anti game

Now compare NeCRoTyPHoNiXiS
Venombreath its the hardest skill to level up level 29 i have wait to level 39 for get 20
Range of Venombreath : None
Dmg one hit 250
Dmg second 250
Fast hit ? no it can be hit one more than 1 / second
Aoe of Venombreath ? 1/2
Venombreath in pvp descend but crap

WHAT IS WRONG WITH YOUR BUILD
Marlon with the good of the game you need to rebalance Frostpike / Venombreath

Friendly,
Your Old Player NeCRoTyPHoNiXiS ;)
NeCRo
 

Re: Balancing Spells - Recent topic.

Postby Reckoning » 5. Jun 2011, 19:30

First off, I'm not shiver

Second, Frostspike SHOULD have it's cooldown increased, to around 1.8 seconds or something similar to Ice lightning. The minimum CD for a skill Right NOW is 1.5-1.8 seconds PER 500-.600 Damage. and Half that for an AOE skill.


Third, The max damage Venom Breath should do is around 600 Damage. That's including good gear. Plague automatically makes Venom Breath/Poison an AOE skill, and nobody in their right mind would use Poison without Plague in PVE. The two skills go together.


To correctly balance skills for PVE and PVP, you have to look at both scenarios.

1. 600 damage is about 180-200 damage in PVP, you are already doing more than enough damage. Skills like ice lightning only do around 270 in pvp, and they're single target casts. While venom breath is a DoT (Damage over Time).

Frostpike right now does around 800 damage, which is about 250 damage in pvp, and it casts at about 1 (without cast speed) seconds, nearly double that of other skills that do the same damage.
Last edited by Reckoning on 5. Jun 2011, 22:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Summoners...

Postby madsex » 5. Jun 2011, 20:18

About you saying minions are overpowered, they really aren't. It is just the combinations you use to make them overpowered. For example, if I didn't use thorns with my minions any rampager would completely destroy me and my minions. Another example: Unity, if I didn't have that I would be ONE hit by ice lightning or any other AOE skill. Also, AOE skills like frost spike rape me and my summons in 1-2 hits. My only hope is that I can kill the other person, or root them so that I even have a chance to winning. Another thing take for example, lets say you have a person at +80% movement speed. I have 23%, my minions have 0%. ANY ranged class will be able to kite me. Even if I do decide to get 80% too, it wont matter because my DPS (summons) will not even get near the target at 0%. Fair, isn't it? Plus, you can kill people with unity if you focus on one target or use AOE that does like 300 per hit. Without thorns or unity, summoners will be killed in every single match, regardless of what the class of the opponent is. I would sacrifice unity just so that my minions move at my movement speed. Also, for fiends and werewolf being overpowered, your out of your mind. In pvp they do 30 damage per hit... (If they can EVEN hit the target) Not to mention thorns, or frost shield or mana shield or poison skin. Werewolf is a level 30 skill, it sure as hell should be able to hit 50s in pvp. Also, if I had weaker gear these minions would do about 150% less damage than they do now. Its not that summoners like me are overpowered in one single area, now if we put all these combinations together we can be pretty strong. You might call that being overpowered, but I call that skill.
I think I have said enough.
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Re: Balancing Spells - Recent topic.

Postby Reckoning » 5. Jun 2011, 20:29

Here goes.

1. How is that skill? The game takes no skill right now.
2. It's, because almost every summoner DOES use those skills.
3. Only people with AMAZING gear will win against summoners, the best of the best.
4. It isn't THAT easy to win against summoners, if they hit you even once with a root, you're dead.
5. Giving more speed to summoners pets, would make them win every single time, no matter what. The only way people CAN win, is, because they don't have that speed.
6. There are PLENTY of other skill combination's you could use, nobody if forcing you to only use summons, Like I don't know...Eviltwines, or Roar.


To win in PVP you have to use good PVP skill combinations.

Nuff' Said?
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Re: Balancing Spells - Recent topic.

Postby madsex » 5. Jun 2011, 20:36

Lol, if I were to use other spell combinations, then they would complain how my new build would be... And If I were to use evil twines, I would have a 100% win rate. So, I guess 100% is better then 70%.
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Re: Balancing Spells - Recent topic.

Postby Reckoning » 5. Jun 2011, 21:10

At the moment barely any of the skills there are ,are perfectly balanced. For the most part they are pretty unbalanced, such as thorns reflecting 70%+ damage, or roar having a 4-5 Second stun etc. It gets to a point where people can only win with certain builds, and certain characters. If a game is properly balanced, a player will be able to have a good chance of winning with any class, that has a decent build.

The biggest problems I see right now are the cooldowns for each skill. The damage is one thing, but if you have too short/too long of a cooldown it messes the whole skill up.

The stats for skills including their damage, and their Cooldown go like this (For the level and the gear we have right now).


Spells -
90 Damage - Aprox. 1.5-1.8 Second Cooldown (Single target at level 20)
50 Damage - Aprox. .8-.9 Second cooldown (AoE of 7+ targets at level 20)

Melee -
100%-130% Damage - Aprox .7-.8 Second cooldown (Single Target at level 20)
100%-110% Damage - Aprox .7-.8 Second cooldown (Multiple Target Aoe max targets 7)

There are of course some outlying skills such as Lucky Bash and Inferno, for those skills the right balance is this equation. I am of course not including Buffs, and this damage Spell damage, not overall damage (That means without buffs or gear bonuses).

For every 50% Damage or + 25 Damage To a skill the cooldown of the skill and or Delay should be raised by .5 Seconds.

Example:

Random Skill Name.
Damage: 140 Ice Damage ( Aprox. 750-800 Damage with gear.)
Cooldown: 2.8 Seconds.
Energy: 24


I think you get the picture.

Skills such as Roar or Eviltwines go with like this.

Max of 3 second duration, In pvp.
Minimum of 10 Second Cooldown.
Energy 25.

This of course may need some adjustments, but that's the overall Idea. In general skills such as Roar and Other detrimental (or Curse) spell need to have a longer cooldown than their duration.

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Re: Balancing Spells - Recent topic.

Postby madsex » 6. Jun 2011, 03:45

Has anyone here played wow? Well I have an idea that is used in that game. Diminishing returns. If you cast a stun or any spell that stops the movement of your hero, its duration will be dramatically reduced. So lets say you do the roar thing and you stun your target for 10 seconds. (Totally ridiculous btw) The next time you cast it on that target (undoes itself when you leave zones) its duration would be approximately 6 seconds. The next time would be 3, after that it would only be a 2 second stun. I would say that the duration should be divided by 1.7 every time.
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Re: Balancing Spells - Recent topic.

Postby Reckoning » 6. Jun 2011, 03:53

I actually said "10 second COOLDOWN" not duration.


And a better idea would be immunities.

After being stunned, you cannot be stunned again for 8 seconds.
After being rooted you cannot be rooted again for 8 seconds.

Mainly, because if you have a stun that lasts 4 second and a recast of 3-4 seconds, if its even cut in half the next time, it's basically a 6 second stun. PVP only lasts about 3-4 seconds right now.

Etc.
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Re: Balancing Spells - Recent topic.

Postby Monk » 6. Jun 2011, 07:14

sounds like a bug, stun shouldnt be 3-4 secs, its base = 7 secs at lvl 20 for pve so it should be 1.75 in pvp if iam correct with my calculation.
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